Here's something to be = alarmed about.

From: Subject: Here's something to be alarmed about. - www.ezboard.com Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:29:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0000_01C46995.CB45F660"; type="text/html" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C46995.CB45F660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Location: file://F:\My%20Files\1%20My%20Documents\Sort%20these%20files\Chylon\Darci\Archived\Page%201.htm Here's something to be = alarmed about. - www.ezboard.com

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Artist = Area=20 Bulletin Board > Artist = Area=20 Bulletin = Board >=20 Here's something to be alarmed about.
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Author	Comment
Major=20 Asspain Just a = Son of a=20 Bitch? (6/14/01 4:44:56=20 pm) Reply=20	Here's something=20 to be alarmed about.=20 No names to protect the innocent. I just got off the = phone=20 with a booking agent who says they are going to stop live = music at=20 their coffeehouse. Yes, coffeehouse. The reason is = that one=20 of the major licensing organizations is holding them up for = dues.=20 The justification is that if an artist has a CD licensed to = one of=20 these orgs, then the performance of those songs by that = artist in=20 the venue is considered a commissionable = performance. Coupla=20 things: 1) I have NEVER gotten a dime from my = licensing co.,=20 even though I have had substantial airplay of my CD "The = Distance"=20 at various times and places over the last coupla = years. 2)=20 I've NEVER received any royalty from live performances of my = music,=20 and further, never expected it since I had made compensation = arrangements in every instance. 3) This will have the = effect=20 of stifling another outlet for "Independent" music if it = becomes=20 widespread. 4) I think that might be the = point. 5)=20 Although I've never heard of this being done, I completely = believe=20 it IS being done when I reflect on what I know about this=20 business. 6) This brings up serious questions about = the=20 usefullness of signing a licensing agreement with one of = these orgs=20 (BMI, ASCAP, SESAC, etc...) when you consider that they may = actually=20 come in and STOP YOU FROM PLAYING, because the venue has no=20 agreement in place with them. I know there is = technically=20 a reason for this, but the idea is that they are supposed to = be=20 protecting the artist from abuse, not abusing the artist. = And by=20 doing this sorta Gestapo tactic to little itty-bitty = coffeehouses=20 and the like, they are going to snuff out one of the very = last=20 forums for us to go out and try to have an = impact. I'm=20 shocked to hear the story, but I believe it, and I'm VERY = concerned=20 about it. We all should be. The re-percussions for = musicians=20 and even music as a whole are huge. WB=20 STILL - Fight = the=20 "Hamster" in you!!
sleblanc Centenarian (6/14/01=20 4:58:53 pm) Reply=20	Re: Here's=20 something to be alarmed about.=20 Damn...I hear ya Wade...that's fucked.=20
AlternativeStatic Harry Potter (6/14/01=20 5:06:06 pm) Reply=20	Re: Here's=20 something to be alarmed about.=20 damn.=20
j= eez =20 Timone (6/14/01=20 5:06:55 pm) Reply=20	Re: Here's=20 something to be alarmed about.=20 They've been pulling that kind of crap for a while here in=20 Canada,except mostly with franchised venues.=20
jeez And Cheez=20 Productions Folk Rock City=20
HATCHETMANN Not such a bad guy. (6/14/01 5:09:04 pm) Reply=20	Re: Here's something to be alarmed = about.=20 These licensing agencies, BMI, ASCP are anal-retentive and=20 hypocrits. The went on a collectin rampage several years = ago, as=20 well. I read an article re: Pete Townsend who was saying the = Who=20 never revieved any performance royalties. General Bobby may = be=20 spazed out kook but he had a point when he was talking about = ASCRAP=20 & BMI.=20 http://www.cbh3.com/phil
Major=20 Asspain Just a = Son of a=20 Bitch? (6/14/01 5:33:57=20 pm) Reply=20	More=20 info...=20 After an extended verbal swordfight with a rep at my = licensing=20 agency, I found out that as long as the performer (copyright = holder)=20 gives their permission, then the venue has all they need. = This=20 person kept trying to digress into the issues that most = people play=20 covers, or the club plays covers, etc....but bottom line - = if you=20 ONLY play your music, and you give the club permission, then = all is=20 well. But his assertion is that most performers don't = have=20 enough material, and that the clubs usually play the music = over the=20 house system from more well-known acts, and that most clubs = won't=20 hire original-only acts, I think he's right about = that. So=20 it's not as bad as I thought, but boy-oh-boy did he not want = to tell=20 me that. It was a surprising and somewhat confrontational = talk.=20 I thought he works for me.....? I don't = think he=20 thinks that's true......... WB=20 STILL - Fight = the=20 "Hamster" in you!!
DarciM DreamDiva (6/14/01 6:52:43 pm) Reply=20	Re: Here's=20 something to be alarmed about.=20 Now wait just a minute, people. This is my department...this = is the=20 niche I was in at BMI; please allow me to share some facts = so you=20 can understand what's going on. Licensing fees from = venues go=20 into a pot to be distributed amongst artists via OTHER forms = of=20 tracking...radio play, TV broadcasts, CD sales, etc. It is=20 absolutely impossible to pay bands or artists for their live = performances in bars and coffeehouses alone when half of = them break=20 up after two or three performances. It's impossible to = track. That's=20 one reason why venues are required license and not bands = (which is=20 the typical first argument from the venue owner as to why = they have=20 to license at all)...it's the only logical and relatively = efficient=20 way to track music use. Keep in mind that PROs pay the = SONGWRITERS=20 and PUBLISHERS, NOT the artists. FYI. Yes, every = venue I've=20 ever been in has bands and artists playing covers. Every = single one.=20 Not to mention that between acts there is most likely a CD = blaring=20 over the house system or a jukebox running. These situations = are=20 licenseable whether the band is playing only originals or = not.=20 There's no way a bar owner can keep track of who's playing = what and=20 expect that the musicians they have play there will keep = their word=20 not to play covers if asked. They won't and it just can't be = done.=20 So the "we only have original music" argument is really not = a=20 logical or even doable one. Major, what the rep told you was = in=20 essence correct, but as he/she said, it's extremely = unlikely.=20 Consider this...I am a BMI writer. If I go to a venue and = play ONLY=20 my original material, I'm still licensed with BMI and my = songs are=20 registered on their database...and that means the venue = needs to pay=20 a licensing fee to BMI as a result, by law, regardless of = whether or=20 not I'm getting radio play or something else that would = allow me to=20 see any part of that licensing fee. Boxcar Willie had to = license his=20 own theatre in Branson with BMI...and he's a BMI writer = himself.=20 It's just the way it is. When a bar, restaurant, = coffeehouse,=20 hotel, casino, etc. (just about any place you can hear music = playing) opens...they have to pay their vendors fees, = correct? You=20 can't NOT pay for your liquor license. You can't NOT the = beer guys.=20 You can't NOT pay your electric bill. You can't NOT pay = Sysco. As=20 well, you can't NOT pay for music use, as the PRO is = essentially=20 taking on the roll of music vendor. It's not free and that's = that.=20 Music licenses at BMI (I can't speak for ASCAP because I = haven't=20 seen one of their contracts in years) are generally based on = the=20 amount of music used and the maximum occupancy of the venue. = The=20 more music you use and the bigger your place, the higher = your fee.=20 On average venues pay about the same as the price of a glass = of Coke=20 per day...this isn't going to break ANYONE. There are = payment plans=20 available if they think it will. There is ALSO an exemption = that=20 applies to BOTH ASCAP and BMI that any venue under 3500 = square feet=20 does not have to pay a licensing fee for=20 recorded=20 music use (if they have live music, they have to license = regardless)=20 and that was negotiated with the PROs by the Bar and = Restaurant=20 Association themselves. 3500 square feet is quite large and = this was=20 really quite a blow to the PROs' bottom line. But out of = fairness to=20 venue owners they bowed to it anyway. If you are = getting=20 airplay and aren't being paid royalties for it...CALL YOUR = PRO AND=20 TELL THEM. That is of course, IF you bothered to register = your songs=20 with them in the first place. I've had several people say, = "Hey, I=20 haven't gotten paid," and my first question is, "Did you = register=20 your songs or did you just sign the agreement and do nothing = more=20 after that?" I get lots of blank looks with that question. = If your=20 songs aren't listed in their databases, they can't track = your=20 airplay. They can only work with the tools you give them. If = you're=20 all set in that regard, then again...CALL THEM, tell them = where=20 you're getting unpaid spins and they will take care of you. = It's=20 really that simple. Yes, it's definitely a problem tracking=20 independent artists on the radio because it's mostly = specialty and=20 local shows playing us. Yes, we slip through the cracks. = Trust me=20 when I say the PROs do the best they can...but consider how = many=20 thousands of bands and artists there are in the world while = a=20 building full of just 450 overworked and underpaid people = has to=20 keep track of the whole kit and caboodle. Still want to = whine about=20 slipping through the cracks? I'd like to have seen ONE = ARTIST do my=20 job for ONE DAY and then bitch about how evil the PROs=20 are. No one wants to close a venue. Hell, they close = a venue=20 and less money for the PRO, right? Why would they want to do = that?=20 They are trying, but the law is that music has to be = licensed if=20 you're going to use it. You ask venues not to and you have = to ask=20 record labels, film companies and radio stations not to, = either.=20 Then NO ONE would get paid.=20 ~Darci Monet Darci Monet = LilMinx=20 Promotions
Major=20 Asspain Just a = Son of a=20 Bitch? (6/14/01 7:47:29=20 pm) Reply=20	Re: Here's=20 something to be alarmed about.=20 I have factual and ethical problems with this post of=20 Darci's..... *Quote:=20 Licensing fees from venues go into a pot to be distributed = amongst=20 artists via OTHER forms of tracking...radio play, TV = broadcasts,=20 CD sales, etc. It is absolutely impossible to pay bands or = artists=20 for their live performances in bars and coffeehouses alone = when=20 half of them break up after two or three performances. = It's=20 impossible to track. That's one reason why venues are = required=20 license and not bands (which is the typical first argument = from=20 the venue owner as to why they have to license at = all)...it's the=20 only logical and relatively efficient way to track music = use. Keep=20 in mind that PROs pay the SONGWRITERS and PUBLISHERS, NOT = the=20 artists. FYI.=20 Then how is it = that I=20 get paid for my by the PRO* for my performance again? And = why is it=20 that I should care about the venue being licensed if I'm not = getting=20 paid by the PRO? *Quote:=20 Yes, every venue I've ever been in has bands and artists = playing=20 covers.=20 I'm not sure = what=20 question you're answering yes* to, but I can assure you = that almost=20 all original acts that I have ever seen only play their own = music,=20 at least when they are doing a show billed under the band = name. What=20 they do outside of that arena is outside the scope of what = I'm=20 talking about. *Quote:=20 Not to mention that between acts there is most likely a CD = blaring=20 over the house system or a jukebox running. These = situations are=20 licenseable whether the band is playing only originals or = not.=20 We agree about=20 this. Quote:=20 There's no way a bar owner can keep track of who's playing = what=20 and expect that the musicians they have play there will = keep their=20 word not to play covers if asked. They won't and it just = can't be=20 done.=20 Unprovable but I = disagree. See below. (<--edit was here - "above" became=20 "below".) Quote:=20 So the "we only have original music" argument is really = not a=20 logical or even doable one.=20 I disagree. It's = not=20 "So" at all. The artist and the venue can sign a contract = that the=20 artist will only perform originbal music, and if they break = that=20 contract, then the artist will be liable for their actions. = The=20 venue is not in the business of policing what acts do, they = are only=20 only responsible for their own actions. If there is in place = some=20 legal mechanism that makes them responsible to track = everything an=20 artist does on stage, I find that at least an unethical = reading of=20 the law, more likely an outright vioaltion of the spirit of = the=20 law. BTW - most original artists would prefer to do = only=20 their own music. Ask around about that = one. Quote:=20 Major, what the rep told you was in essence correct, but = as he/she=20 said, it's extremely unlikely. Consider this...I am a BMI = writer.=20 If I go to a venue and play ONLY my original material, I'm = still=20 licensed with BMI and my songs are registered on their=20 database...and that means the venue needs to pay a = licensing fee=20 to BMI as a result, by law, regardless of whether or not = I'm=20 getting radio play or something else that would allow me = to see=20 any part of that licensing fee.=20 No that's = incorrect.=20 They are required to have the copyright owners permission = only. If=20 you give that permission, then there is no royalty payable.=20 These PRO's exist to collect those "Copyright = Royalties"=20 that are due for performances of protected works in the = ABSENCE of a=20 specific right of use being given by the artist. That's why = these=20 PRO's exist. The artist has no way of collecting on all the=20 individual accounts, so the PRO's handle this for them. So = if I give=20 them my permission to have the songs performed by me live, = that is=20 all that's required. "Extremely Unlikely" is not part of the = equation, no matter how true it may be. Quote:=20 Boxcar Willie had to license his own theatre in Branson = with=20 BMI...and he's a BMI writer himself. It's just the way it = is.=20 Yes he had to = license=20 his theatre, but he would NOT have to license his OWN = performance in=20 that theatre, those are 2 very different things that you are = saying=20 are equal. Quote:=20 When a bar, restaurant, coffeehouse, hotel, casino, etc. = (just=20 about any place you can hear music playing) opens...they = have to=20 pay their vendors fees, correct? You can't NOT pay for = your liquor=20 license. You can't NOT the beer guys. You can't NOT pay = your=20 electric bill. You can't NOT pay Sysco. As well, you can't = NOT pay=20 for music use, as the PRO is essentially taking on the = roll of=20 music vendor. It's not free and that's that. Music = licenses at BMI=20 (I can't speak for ASCAP because I haven't seen one of = their=20 contracts in years) are generally based on the amount of = music=20 used and the maximum occupancy of the venue. The more = music you=20 use and the bigger your place, the higher your fee. On = average=20 venues pay about the same as the price of a glass of Coke = per=20 day...this isn't going to break ANYONE. There are payment = plans=20 available if they think it will.=20 I agree to all = of this,=20 but again, that's not the situation at hand = here. Quote:=20 There is ALSO an exemption that applies to BOTH ASCAP and = BMI that=20 any venue under 3500 square feet does not have to pay a = licensing=20 fee for recorded music use=20 I'll look into = that, the=20 venue in question would fit that = description. Quote:=20 (if they have live music, they have to license regardless) = Not if the = things I=20 mentioned above were followed. And you make in this = statement the=20 presumption that the music that "live" acts would be playing = is=20 administered by a PRO, which may not be true. And again, if = the act=20 gives their permission to have the performance, it's not an = issue=20 anyway. Quote:=20 If you are getting airplay and aren't being paid royalties = for=20 it...CALL YOUR PRO AND TELL THEM. That is of course, IF = you=20 bothered to register your songs with them in the first = place.=20 I did both those = things.=20 You should ask before you may accusatory = presumptions. Quote:=20 I've had several people say, "Hey, I haven't gotten paid," = and my=20 first question is, "Did you register your songs or did you = just=20 sign the agreement and do nothing more after that?" I get = lots of=20 blank looks with that question. If your songs aren't = listed in=20 their databases, they can't track your airplay. They can = only work=20 with the tools you give them. If you're all set in that = regard,=20 then again...CALL THEM, tell them where you're getting = unpaid=20 spins and they will take care of you. It's really that = simple.=20 No it's not = "really that=20 simple", because I've done that and they continue to say = that if it=20 doesn't show up in their tracking, then it's not = payable. Quote:=20 Yes, it's definitely a problem tracking independent = artists on the=20 radio because it's mostly specialty and local shows = playing us.=20 Yes, we slip through the cracks. Trust me when I say the = PROs do=20 the best they can...but consider how many thousands of = bands and=20 artists there are in the world while a building full of = just 450=20 overworked and underpaid people has to keep track of the = whole kit=20 and caboodle. Still want to whine about slipping through = the=20 cracks? I'd like to have seen ONE ARTIST do my job for ONE = DAY and=20 then bitch about how evil the PROs are.=20 Who's whining? I = resent=20 that characterization if you meant me, but I'll try to give = you the=20 benefit of the doubt. Back to your point - which shoe would = you like=20 to wear on this point, because you're speaking out of both = sides of=20 your mouth here. We can either do what we're supposed to do, = and=20 then shut up, or we can NOT do what we're supposed to do, = and THEN=20 shut up? You're telling us what to do, and then you make = excuses for=20 why that doesn't work in the next breath? Do you have a bias = here? Quote:=20 No one wants to close a venue. Hell, they close a venue = and less=20 money for the PRO, right? Why would they want to do that? = They are=20 trying, but the law is that music has to be licensed if = you're=20 going to use it. You ask venues not to and you have to ask = record=20 labels, film companies and radio stations not to, either. = Then NO=20 ONE would get paid.=20 Well you're just = wrong=20 here. The rep in the area in question is sending ringers in = to shout=20 out requests, they are sending in scouts every night and = firing off=20 letters by the dozen to this business from their corporate=20 headquarters and their lawyers are threatening everything = from=20 perpetual eclipse to nuclear winter. They WANT that fee, no = matter=20 if the circumstances don't warrant. And believe me, this = place in=20 NOT worth this effort, but they are being made into an = example, even=20 though they WILL NOT allow musicians who have licensing = agreements=20 on their stage. They STILL have problems. I didn't = post this=20 to challenge the assertion that artists should be paid, and = that for=20 the most part, PRO's help them fulfill that right. My point = is that=20 in some instances, this can be taken too far and pursued=20 inapporpriately, perhaps even illegally. I am simply sharing = information that I came into contact with. As for = Darci's=20 assertions, well. You apparently have a sore spot here, and = although=20 we may agree on some things, you have really tried to muddy = some=20 previously clear things. You compare many unequal events as = being=20 the same thing, when they are clearly not, and you are = making leaps=20 that would be unsupportable under a burden of = proof. I trust=20 that you will look over what we have both written and amend = some of=20 your positions. And while I recognize that Darci has = many=20 friends here, I would ask that you re-read this again (as I = have)=20 before you go nuts defending her. I think that you'll find = reason to=20 reconsider any quick reaction. I did not attack her, yet her = post=20 shows a fair amount of animosity towards mine that is = completely=20 unwarranted. WB WB=20 STILL - Fight = the=20 "Hamster" in you!! Edited by: Major=20 Asspain at: 6/14/01 7:49:39 pm*
Team=20 Faithgroove Centenarian (6/14/01=20 8:17:45 pm) Reply=20	Re: Here's=20 something to be alarmed about.=20 There are also other markets that don't get tracked by PRO's = for=20 some reason or other. Faith got some airplay = (regular=20 rotation) with two of her originals that were registered = with ASCAP.=20 The station that played these songs is in Hawaii and we = heard that=20 some of the stations there didn't pay royalties. We didn't = mind=20 because it's a small state and just having the song in = rotation was=20 a big deal. We didn't want to ask for our $4.50 and = jeapordize the=20 relationship we had with the station's PD. I think = they=20 didn't pay royalties because this particular station plays = mostly=20 local artists who never get rotation outside of the 50th = state. This=20 is probably the reason that the PRO's never track the=20 songlists. Funny thing is that Faith had co-written = another=20 song that became a hit in Hawaii. For this song, she = received a nice=20 couple-a checks from ASCAP. I think this song was played on = several=20 more stations in Hawaii than just the one that originally = played=20 Faith's original. Someone said that the record label that = released=20 the song Faith co-wrote was really good about getting = royalties.=20 Maybe it's a "gotta remind them PRO's" type of thing=20 sometimes. I have heard that you can request and = submit cue=20 sheets if you know that your songs are being played on a = particular=20 station or in a particular film or tv show. This would help = in=20 getting your royalty payments. Nolan the Rep for = FAITH=20
paisleyface The One True Wayne = Newton (6/14/01 8:54:48 pm) Reply=20 Community Supporter	Re: Here's=20 something to be alarmed about.=20 I'm in a constant state of alarm these days. At least the = hamster in=20 me isn't winning. HAHAHAHAHA=20
HATCHETMANN Not such a bad guy. (6/14/01 9:04:11 pm) Reply=20	Re: Here's something to be alarmed = about.=20 I am real interested in reading Momma Darci's = rubutal. Keep=20 whippin' that little hamster back, Pais.=20
paisleyface The One True Wayne = Newton (6/14/01 9:08:41 pm) Reply=20 Community Supporter	Re: Here's=20 something to be alarmed about.=20 wait wait wait, i gotta backpeddle a bit. i'm not calling = anyone a=20 hamster. i'm just referencing the analogy, which by now, has = been=20 repeated so many times, that it's funny. the truth may be = that i=20 still qualify as a hamster. i just don't know. i honestly = thing that=20 everyone's got to hamsterize at one point or another in = their lives.=20 nobody with a paying job doesn't know what it's like to run = on a=20 wheel.=20
HATCHETMANN Not such a bad guy. (6/14/01 9:31:22 pm) Reply=20	Re: Here's something to be alarmed = about.=20 Take a couple of deep breaths and chant Phil Frazier is = great for=20 about 10 minutes each day. It will all be good. All of us = are on the=20 Karmic wheel. Just flow with it.=20
MC=20 Paperclip Apartment=20 Ninja (6/14/01 10:57:20=20 pm) Reply=20	Re: Here's=20 something to be alarmed about.=20 "Deep Ellum!"=20 Site: mcpaperclip.com Music: 10,000 Lakes Dr. Tissue Chat: = All = My Chat=20 Are Belong To You
Chylon Who is this person? (6/14/01 11:59:58 pm) Reply=20 \| Edit=20	Re: Here's=20 something to be alarmed about.=20 Darci There is NO Way you can enlighten anyone = properly=20 about BMI. They are Damned Liars and Thieves! I don=92t care = if it=20 is/was your niche. Please tell them to sue me if it isn=92t = true!=20 Because if I wasn=92t telling the truth, I=92ve been = slandering and=20 defaming all over the place! I=92ll be happy to provide you = with all=20 the documentation you need! Then too, it is ALL OVER the VMG = Website. Have a look at it and see for yourself at = http://www.vmgworldwide.org/ Read=20 more about the Thinking of Starting a Publishing Company = Thread at pub19.= ezboard.com/fartist...=3D1&stop=3D20=20 and read both pages. The PRO excuse is ALWAYS the = same =96=20 either the song was never cleared or we have no reports of = airplay!=20 We=92ve got ALL the DOCUMENTATION to prove = both! Explain why=20 Pete Townshend didn=92t get paid and was told the money went = to=20 Nashville at http://www.petetownshend.com/press_release_diary_display.cfm?id=3D= 3961!=20 He should have been paid and wasn=92t! You can=92t explain = it unless you=20 come to the same conclusion that the VMG Campers do which is = they=20 are ABSOLUTE Damned Liars and Thieves with the endorsement = and=20 collusion of the courts! Majorasspain, We=92ve = been=20 telling everyone for YEARS about the disgust and contempt = with=20 respect to the PRO=92s! It=92s been discussed by us on the = mp3,=20 sinusoidal, the VMG bb, newsgroups, etc. It=92s ALL OVER the = VMG=20 Website =96 look at the index for yourself since you like to = check!=20 This time pay attention. The ABSOLUTE most Vile and=20 Contemptible part about the Music Industry is the Performing = Rights=20 Organizations with the FULL ENDORSEMENT and COLLUSION of and = by=20 Corrupt Judges! The PRO's EXTORT the money from=20 bars/restaurants/etc. and they can CLOSE THEM DOWN without = due=20 process of law - and the Corrupt Judges FULLY ENDORSE IT =96 = if these=20 music users DON'T PAY! Check that out since you're = the best=20 at checking the checking!!!!! Talk to bar owners and radio = stations=20 and find out the cost of that extortion for yourself! ALL = the Bar=20 Owners, Coffeehouses, etc. want is for the PRO's to PROVE = that the=20 people who should be making the money or paid ARE!!!!! = The=20 PRO=92s scam is the longest running scam in this industry! = People - It=20 is in the BILLIONS of DOLLARS and for YEARS! I've = brought up=20 the Tiffany Barsotti article for a reason --- mp3.com PAID = ASCAP ---=20 How come NO ONE at MP3.COM HAS BEEN PAID for = SONGWRITING/PUBLISHING=20 by ASCAP!? P4P is ONE thing! Songwriting/Publishing = is=20 another! If you are entitled to both, get paid for = both! If=20 the VMG Campers weren=92t telling the truth, the PRO=92s = would sue for=20 SLANDER and/or DEFAMATION. But TRUTH is an ABSOLUTE and = PERFECT=20 defense! That should ALSO tell you why they haven=92t sued = Bobby=20 Farrell and he=92s been calling them LYING THIEVING = Sons-Of-Bitches=20 for YEARS! You should be alarmed, but ask your PRO = nicely and=20 see how far it gets you! When nice doesn=92t work, what will = you=20 do? Read the Thinking of Staring a Publishing Company = Thread=20 Again. Maybe this time some of you might understand why the = VMG=20 Campers hit on Publishing and the PROs so Damned Hard =96 = especially=20 when there is a half-truth/whole lie involved! Phil = You=20 call Bobby a spazed out kook. By the way =96 he doesn=92t = frequent this=20 BB. I do and I=92m being very reasonable with you=20 Gently now =96 How angry would you be if you = had been=20 stolen from in the MILLIONS! How spazed out would = you be if=20 you saw those Damned and Contemptible lies behind someone = you loved=20 that was left for broke and abject poverty because of them.=20 How spazed would you be if the Lies and Thievery = were behind=20 someone you cared about that was murdered? Chylon
Major=20 Asspain Just a = Son of a=20 Bitch? (6/15/01 12:15:42=20 am) Reply=20	Chylon/=20 Bobby=20 I had a feeling you might come 'round this one. I for = one=20 have ALWAYS admitted Bobby's knowledge and the basic = correct-ness of=20 his stance. I just don't like the way he treats people, and = me in=20 particular. And he DOES tell a lot of 1/2-truths that I have = always=20 been unhappy with in regards to his current endeavors with = the=20 satellite placement of songs and all that. The fact = is that=20 he would carry a lot of weight if he would spend more time=20 explaining realities, and less time spewing like a lunatic. = But=20 that's his call and he's welcome to whatever stance he wants = to=20 take. He does have a massive amount of = knowledge........ But=20 I have NO DOUBT in the veracity of his stuff in regards to = PRO's, I=20 posted this because I had never heard of THIS particular = problem=20 before, and I find it troubling. And this is STILL = from=20 sinusoidal, in case you wondered, though the little jab = about=20 "Checking" makes me think you know that. WB=20 STILL - Fight = the=20 "Hamster" in you!!
Major=20 Asspain Just a = Son of a=20 Bitch? (6/15/01 12:21:37=20 am) Reply=20	Townsend - sharp=20 guy....=20 I never heard that one either..... Darci? Is Townsend = full of=20 it? I'm getting cuirous about your response now too.....=20 STILL - Fight = the=20 "Hamster" in you!!
HATCHETMANN Not such a bad guy. (6/15/01 12:29:09 am) Reply=20	Re: Here's=20 something to be alarmed about.=20 Welcome Chylon. You are not quite as amusiing as Bobby but = we shall=20 make do. OH, yeah send my kind regards to that spazed out = old kooky=20 koot. Tell him I miss him and wish him well. I heard he is = in some=20 sort of retirement. What happened? Did he give up on = educating the=20 Idiot Element?=20
DarciM DreamDiva (6/15/01 6:53:53 am) Reply=20	Re: Here's=20 something to be alarmed about.=20 HTML Comments are not allowed=20 ~Darci Monet Darci Monet = LilMinx=20 Promotions Edited by: DarciM=20 at: 6/15/01 6:58:09 am
DarciM DreamDiva (6/15/01 6:59:00 am) Reply=20	Re: Here's=20 something to be alarmed about.=20 HTML Comments are not allowed=20 ~Darci Monet Darci Monet = LilMinx=20 Promotions
DarciM DreamDiva (6/15/01 7:04:24 am) Reply=20	Re: Here's=20 something to be alarmed about.=20 Good grief! You're all acting like the townspeople that went = after=20 Frankenstein! And yes I meant to use such an analogy because = I never=20 said the PROs are perfect, so Frankenstein fits. They do the = best=20 they can and still fail in many ways (starting with my = former=20 salary, as a matter of fact!). I'm not disputing that fact = with=20 anyone. Major, I did not intend to personally attack = you and=20 nothing I posted should have been taken that way. I = don't=20 have a "rebuttal", per se. I will merely share my knowledge, = which=20 is extensive in this particular field whether you all want = to=20 respect that or not. If I sound frustrated it's because I = argued the=20 "why you have to license" subject every day for 8 years with = venue=20 owners in an effort to protect songwriters and needless to = say it's=20 very disheartening to get flack from the songwriters = themselves,=20 too. *Quote:=20 Then how is it that I get paid for my by the PRO* for my=20 performance again? And why is it that I should care about = the=20 venue being licensed if I'm not getting paid by the PRO?=20 The definition = of the=20 word "performance" does not just mean getting up on a stage = with=20 your guitar or band in the world of PROs. A "performance" = can be=20 putting on a CD over a set of loud speakers, music being = played on a=20 TV commercial, the song playing as the closing credits role = in a=20 film, a myriad of different things. Unfortunately, in the = case of=20 live performances, there's no way currently to track each = and every=20 song that is played in every single venue unless you had the = venue=20 owner submit set lists...and I can tell ya right now that = the=20 majority of bar owners can't even keep their own books = correctly let=20 alone keep track of endless set lists. This is why live = performance=20 licensing fees are put into a pot to be distributed via = other=20 avenues of tracking, such as radio as I stated previously.=20 Basically, if a songwriter isn't getting THOSE kinds of = plays, then=20 he or she can gig all over the country and still never see a = royalty=20 check for their LIVE PERFORMANCES. I'm not at all defending = that=20 policy, I'm merely stating that that's what's currently in=20 place. You don't have to care if the venue's licensed = if you=20 don't want to. It's not your responsibility to make sure a = place is=20 licensed, it's the owner's. *Quote:=20 but I can assure you that almost all original acts that I = have=20 ever seen only play their own music, at least when they = are doing=20 a show billed under the band name.=20 Then we simply = haven't=20 had the same experience, that's all. Perhaps no one here = does covers=20 (they probably don't have TIME since from what I noticed so = far is=20 that a standard set lasts about 45 minutes to an hour here), = but I=20 CAN say that about 8 out of 10 original bands in Nashville = throws at=20 least one in their set...that's the norm to please the = 2:30am=20 drunken stragglers before last call after already playing = for three=20 hours straight. Quote:=20 and if they break that contract, then the artist will be = liable=20 for their actions. The venue is not in the business of = policing=20 what acts do, they are only only responsible for their own = actions. If there is in place some legal mechanism that = makes them=20 responsible to track everything an artist does on stage, I = find=20 that at least an unethical reading of the law, more likely = an=20 outright vioaltion of the spirit of the law.=20 Exactly...the = venue=20 doesn't police what acts do...so if a band breaks a "no = covers"=20 contract then really who's going to know? This is why I am = saying=20 the probability is unlikely that there will never ever be a = cover=20 played in a venue claiming to have all original material. = You're=20 bascially proving my point here. Quote:=20 They are required to have the copyright owners permission = only. If=20 you give that permission, then there is no royalty = payable...So if=20 I give them my permission to have the songs performed by = me live,=20 that is all that's required.=20 Quote:=20 Yes he had to license his theatre, but he would NOT have = to=20 license his OWN performance in that theatre, those are 2 = very=20 different things that you are saying are equal.=20 Regarding the = first=20 quote: If you, as a BMI songwriter, give your permission = then=20 perhaps technically there is no royalty payable TO YOU...but = this=20 does not mean that this overrides any fees payable to BMI = (or ASCAP)=20 IN GENERAL, so in actuality that's NOT all that's required = when all=20 is said and done. The pain in the ass about copyright law: = "If this=20 is like this, then you do this...EXCEPT when this happens, = then you=20 do THAT..." The whole damn thing is like that. And because = the PROs=20 base their whole business around it...they are like that,=20 too. Regarding the second quote: In a way they ARE = equal=20 because when a venue signs a license, they are issued a = BLANKET=20 AGREEMENT...it covers everything and everyone, not just = certain=20 writers or copyright holders...and there is no language in = the=20 license that allows a copyright holder to opt out, either. = Now in=20 situations outside of the norm like Boxcar Willie's (huge = profile,=20 huge money) the PRO will sometimes negotiate a manual = contract, but=20 it's very rare, and they do try to avoid it if at all = possible (and=20 that's in an effort to not only maintain fairness across the = board=20 for ALL licensing venues but it would also be an = administrative=20 nightmare that would end up creating tens of thousands - = millions=20 even? - of overhead which would eventually come out of = songwriters'=20 pockets). Quote:=20 I'll look into that, the venue in question would fit that=20 description.=20 Regarding the=20 exemption...I admit I was not as clear as I should have been = on this=20 cuz I was writing really fast at the time...I apologize. Let = me be=20 crystal: The exemption is that any venue under 3500 square = feet (in=20 its entirety, that includes kitchen and storage, etc.) that = uses=20 ONLY recorded music and nothing = else* is exempt from licensing. If they=20 use live, they have to license...if they use live AND = recorded both,=20 they have to license. Just wanted to clarify that. = *Quote:=20 I did both those things. You should ask before you may = accusatory=20 presumptions.=20 Again, I wasn't = accusing=20 you or presuming anything personally. "You" was meant in an=20 all-encompassing manner...and with good reason, if you will = read=20 on... Quote:=20 We can either do what we're supposed to do, and then shut = up, or=20 we can NOT do what we're supposed to do, and THEN shut up? = You're=20 telling us what to do, and then you make excuses for why = that=20 doesn't work in the next breath? Do you have a bias here?=20 A) I never said = for=20 anyone to shut up. B) I don't make excuses, I give reasons. = C) I am=20 merely suggesting that before people jump to conclusions and = blame=20 the PRO for everything (let me clarify yet again that I'm = not=20 speaking of you PERSONALLY) that they take a look at whether = or not=20 they did what they were supposed to do on THEIR end first. = Then if=20 the PRO drops the ball, by all means skewer the bejesus out = of them.=20 However, in my personal experience nine times out of ten it = was the=20 songwriter that didn't do their paperwork and then expected = the PRO=20 to magically know how to pay them with nothing to go on. = It's very,=20 very, may I say again, VERY common for this to happen. And = frankly,=20 it's embarrassing to admit that songwriters are often the = world's=20 worst business people. But it's the truth. Quote:=20 Well you're just wrong here. The rep in the area in = question is=20 sending ringers in to shout out requests, they are sending = in=20 scouts every night and firing off letters by the dozen to = this=20 business from their corporate headquarters and their = lawyers are=20 threatening everything from perpetual eclipse to nuclear = winter.=20 They WANT that fee, no matter if the circumstances don't = warrant.=20 And believe me, this place in NOT worth this effort, but = they are=20 being made into an example, even though they WILL NOT = allow=20 musicians who have licensing agreements on their stage. = They STILL=20 have problems.=20 I'm sorry, I'm = not=20 wrong. Again I'll state that PROs do not want to shut = businesses=20 down; as a matter of fact, they literally CAN'T shut a = business=20 down. If and when a venue closes citing a PRO as the = culprit, it's=20 because they refused to stop using unauthorized music after = MONTHS=20 (in some cases YEARS) of attempts at resolving the issue = amicably,=20 they've been verified CLEARLY and NUMEROUSLY as using music = other=20 than all original material and ended up with their asses = sued off as=20 a result...whereas if they had just paid the piddly yearly = fee to=20 begin with their doors would still be open. I suspect that = this=20 booking agent isn't giving you the entire story (or the = venue owner=20 isn't giving HIM the entire story)...because trust me, from = personal=20 experience a venue the size we're discussing wouldn't have a = big=20 enough yearly fee to make it worth a PRO hounding them as=20 claimed...at least not for BMI. I just have a suspicion that = we are=20 all missing a piece of the big picture in this particular = case. And=20 I promise - I'd write it in my own blood if I had to - by = the time a=20 situation gets to that level, every effort has been made by = the PRO=20 to resolve the issue and verify that there is indeed no = licensable=20 music being used in the establishment. They simply can't = even get to=20 court if it's otherwise. I can't speak for ASCAP's tactics = in=20 building (or fudging perhaps) their cases, but I spent some = time=20 during my employment with BMI preparing their legal files = for our=20 lawyers and I can tell you that they are meticulously = detailed and=20 researched and there's no funny business involved. People = have been=20 fired for not following those guidelines. Believe it or = not. Quote:=20 and you are making leaps that would be unsupportable under = a=20 burden of proof...I trust that you will look over what we = have=20 both written and amend some of your positions.=20 Everything I've = said is=20 supportable, factual and I feel I've been perfectly clear. I = have no=20 positions to amend. No one has to like it, but it's the=20 truth. Quote:=20 yet her post shows a fair amount of animosity towards mine = that is=20 completely unwarranted.=20 Again, not = intended. I=20 am passionate about this subject and that's = all. Quote:=20 Someone said that the record label that released the song = Faith=20 co-wrote was really good about getting royalties. Maybe = it's a=20 "gotta remind them PRO's" type of thing sometimes.=20 Indeed. It sucks = and=20 there's no doubt about that, but sometimes that happens, = especially=20 in the case of independent or unsigned artists. Doesn't make = it=20 right by any means, but it is unfortunately one of a million = crosses=20 we have to bear! I'm sorry Chylon...I just have no = response=20 to your post because you are so clearly hysterical about it = that=20 anything I say will just go in one ear and out the other = anyway. You=20 don't want to hear what I'd have to say, so for the most = part I=20 won't bother. As far as Pete Townshend = goes...truthfully I=20 know nothing about his situation and can't comment on it = (and the=20 link was dead when I tried it). I'd have to look at his = account to=20 even make an educated guess which I don't have access to and = that=20 was also a department outside of mine so my knowledge is = limited=20 there. I can't begin to explain a clusterfk like that. = Sorry.=20 ~Darci Monet* Darci Monet = LilMinx=20 = Promotions

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